On Sunday 03 June 2001 09:56 am, you wrote:
> patrick wrote:
> > On Sunday 03 June 2001 07:49 am, you wrote:
> > > patrick wrote:
> > > > On Sunday 03 June 2001 05:54 am, you wrote:
> > > > > Smitty wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > <snip>
> > > > >
> > > > > > This would create a very bad public relations situation for ms
> > > > > > which could be usede as ammunition again and again. You have to
> > > > > > aggressively oppose the Nazi mentality of microsoft. Microsoft
> > > > > > must die. Smitty
> > > > >
> > > > > Microsoft isn't all bad -- they can serve as a bad example.
> > > > >
> > > > > Seriously, I don't want an all-Linux world, or all-BSD, or
> > > > > all-anything world any more than I want an all-microsoft world. If
> > > > > Linux could just double it's desktop presence from 15% to 30%, (at
> > > > > least enough that apps would be automatically ported) that would
> > > > > turn that market into a genuinely competitive one, then everyone
> > > > > wins and I could finally get a job writing Linux code instead of
> > > > > microsoft dreck.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ed.
> > > >
> > > > ed, i am beginning to think that kde is what is gonna make linux
> > > > the desktop opertating system. i have read the other day that
> > > > kde has been ported to mac and to windoes. what do u think of
> > > > this statement
> > >
> > > KDE will be a strong influence, (he says rising to the bait) but I
> > > support the idea of choice in desktop environments just as I do
> > > operating systems.
> >
> > ok, i am not saying there cannot be choice, what i am saying
> > is that there needs to be one environment that stands out
> > to draw more and more people into linux. and then there are
> > many other environments that people can use once they get
> > here if they choose.
> >
> > i believe linux will always give the customer choice, but i also
> > believe we need some kind of environment that ties us all
> > toghether. without it, linux will continue to be many environments
> > without any central glue to hold us together.
>
> The Linux desktop already has a central glue. It's the X Window
> System. With the exception of SVGAlib, it's the one unifying level of
> graphic abstraction common to all Linux desktops.
>
> > There's just no good reason for applications to be
> >
> > > tied to one desktop environment unless they are the applications that
> > > create the desktop environment. Kparts and Bonobo ( the respective
> > > component libs for each desktop) are moving toward compatibility and
> > > that's as it should be.
> >
> > ok, but i beleive that one will in a sense win out for the majority
> > of people. that is one thing we need, write a program for linux
> > and it works on linux, of course there are other options available.
>
> It's not enough to write a program for Linux and it works on Linux -- we
> already have that in spades! In the near future, we will need the
> ability to write a program and then just re-compile it for any OS.
exactly, and in order for that to be we need one program that works
in most all linux's and then it can be ported to mac which has
one desktop to port to and to windoes that one desktop to port to.
i agree wholeheartedly :)
and it can be ported to everything else too
>
> > > Unfortunately for Gnome, GTK+ and glib, the toolkit and windowing API
> > > compatability layer, on which Gnome is based, are not yet functionally
> > > portable to Windows. I installed The Gimp on my wife's NT box and it
> > > was un-usable -- mainly due to glib fighting with the win32 API. Until
> > > that is cleared up, GTK/Gnome based apps will be strictly limited to
> > > Unix/Linux platforms or possibly MacOS.
> >
> > i feel in time gnome will become more widely used and used
> > on other systems besides linux, but for the time being kde
> > has a considerable lead. kde is a rather unifying desktop.
>
> Depends on who you talk to. Try telling that to the Simian folks.
yes, i can understand the simian folks. they have been competing
and will continue to do so with kde. kde is taking the lead and as
more and more and more apps are being written for kde, kde
becomes the defacto desktop.
Yes,
> I agree that KDE has a lead. Right now microsoft has a lead too and is
> rabidly trying to unify everything in sight. Is that reason to just
> forget about this Linux nonsense?
windoes is NOT trying to unify anthing. they are attempting
to dictate everything. this is not the linux way. this is the
sick way of large american business.
that is not the same thing. microsoft and linux is not the same.
gates and company want to rule even with an iron fist the
future of the country and the world. linux in my opinion will in
time rule but do so in a democratic way. linux does not demand
that everyone follow just this or that, mircrosoft does. linux opens
itself up to the world. microsoft places itself above the world and
closes every thing down around them. there is a big difference.
( I think not!)
i think not too
>
> > > At least for the time being, for development teams wanting to write
> > > once, deploy many, and *perform acceptably*, QT is a clear choice. I'm
> > > not happy about that. I prefer to code using GTK.
> >
> > can u explain why other than the fact that qt seems to be becoming
> > the stand if u will. this does not mean that gtk will not be used.
>
> The qt widget lib works on Windows, gtk does not. If I write a program
> using the qt widget set I can just recompile the code and have a
> resonable expectation that the program will run on windows. In my
> experience this is not the case (YET!) with Gtk. The down side is that
> to deploy the QT program on windows I'll have to pay TrollTech a license
> fee. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe there's a
> working un-encumbered QT library for Windows.
i believe this has been cleared up ahile back. i could be wrong.
but i thought i read about this a while back.
>
> > to me its like this. kde which is having magnificent success with
> > thrid party apps is the central core other than the kernal. more and
> > more apps mean more and more people joining up with linux.
> > why are u not happy with this. is it just because u prefer to code
> > in gtk. if this is the reason there is no reason for u not to continue
> > in gtk. linux is going through some changes now. it appears that
> > kde is our future, thats my point.
>
> Well taken, but I didn't say I was unhappy with more people joining up
> with Linux, neither did I say I was unhappy about KDE's success. Don't
> put words in my mouth or my participation in this discussion will be
> over!
ok, if i have offended u i am sorry. now why are u getting upset.
this is part of my point eveybody in linux which is doing different things
seems to at some point get upset with some other part of linux.
>
> Qt and gtk are not KDE and Gnome. Don't confuse them. Qt and gtk are
> quite at home running in either desktop environment because they are
> widget libraries that "wrap" a platform's GUI API into a consistent
> higher-level API. It's all about adjusting up and down to a comfortable
> level of abstraction.
got it
>
> I run KDE2 on my personal workstation, but when I code a GUI app I reach
> for GTK and run the program under KDE. GTK is more flexible when you
> need to code things that are "thinking out of the box". I can look at
> the code and see exactly how each level of abstraction does it's job all
> the way down to the GUI's lowest API level and I can take advantage of
> the details that I learn.
>
> Another aspect of GTK is that it's written in C and not C++. Not all
> C++ compilers on different platforms are created equal. GTK is
> potentially more portable amoung the unices. That doesn't keep it from
> being used in C++ programs. I usually wrap Gtk calls in my own C++
> classes in the same way that KDE wraps QT classes (QT calls) in KDE
> classes.
>
> All I care about is that my program does what I want it to, can run in
> either desktop environment. For now I don't care if it doesn't run on
> windows, but if I needed to quickly produce some GUI software to run on
> multiple platforms, I'd pretty much have to use QT for now or code using
> the windows API and winelib. I want better alternatives. I want to
> choose the tool I believe is best and not have to worry about the
> freaking OS or desktop environment or pay a license fee. I don't care
> about desktop war politics.
desktop politics. i believe there is going to be desktop politics as u
call it whether we want it or not. i hope in the future kde is the
dominiate desktop, i hope all the other desktops that there are
will make themselves compatible with kde and then we can run
all the desktops we want and they will all work together instead of
separately as u have stated. this is my statement nothing more.
>
> Having only ONE desktop environment isn't going to draw people to Linux.
> Having lots of applications that do what you want with a minimum of
> bother will.
i would agree with u. but to start to get all these people we need one
unifying dekstop, or at least all the desktops to be unified in some
ways. i would also agree that the more desktops we have the better.
linux will fill the bill for many many people that want to do something
different. all i am saying is that if we have 20 desktops that people
want to write for then those 20 desktops need to be unified in the
respect that a program written for one of them can be easily ported
and should be ported to all of them.
>
> Ed.
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