On Monday 25 February 2002 21:48, you wrote:
> Tell Scott not to look for one from me.
Since you reference your Sunday School career later, I'll reference the
scriptures now.
Matthew 5:23, 1 Peter 3:10-12
It's one thing to talk the talk ... quite another to walk the walk. I know
you won't accept counsel from me ... and that is only right ... but perhaps
you will accept it directly from the scriptures.
>
> While Sun may have acted within the scope of that it said (clipped)
> just not actionalbly breaching affirmative covenants does not
> translate to acting "ethically and honorably"
Well yes, as a matter of fact, it does. What is unethical is to require that
they go beyond what they agreed to.
Although it also has a broader application, this exact principle (as it
applies to earthly commerce) was thoroughly presented at Matthew 20:1-16
>
> My points were (and are):
>
> 1. [Cue Ella Fitzgerald]: No source -- No acceptible license
> permitting forking and use under BSD or wider ==> implies" You
> don't have a thing."
Read the BSD license. It asks nothing and gets it ... in full. [Cue Billie
Holiday singing "Why not take all of me?"]
>
> 2. Sun has successfully diverted the development pool from
> focusing on software testing which feeds back to that
> community -- taken a free ride from the good will 'nice guys'
> in Open Source again, _again_ just as it did with the
> Blackdown port.
Did Sun divert? Or did their presence actually enlarge the pool? It's pretty
certain that prior to StarOffice the Linux office suite cupboard was pretty
bare. Now it has KOffice, AbiSuite and both Star Office and Open Office.
Early iterations of KOffice and AbiSuite were pretty rough around the edges.
I know because I tried to use them ... several times. To compete on the
desktop, Linux needs at least one strong suite. Thus far, Open Office is
simply the better product.
>
> This is to the detriment of Open Source. The maturity of the
> Gnome and KDE suites suffer as a result. Complete and robust
> import filters for Abi- and Kword to XML intermediate code and
> back to RTF would be useful; identifying faults for Sun is
> not.
Ummm ... there were, arguably, a few hundred folks working on Open Office and
a few thousand beta testing Star Office. Much of the coding on Star Office
that Sun paid for was also folded into Open Office. Even OSS is working from
a finite manpower pool, the result was a net gain (because you have to count
the manhours that Sun paid for) and I suspect that the presence of Sun on the
playing field brought additional talent to the game ... both to support it
and to work against it. Kword and Abiword were available for quite a while
before Sun dipped its toe in the pool and had "the benefit of Suns absence"
but still lag well behind the Star / Open Office offerings. Don't blame Sun
for doing quickly what others did slowly or not at all and I will not blame
you for not being as fast as Michael Johnson.
>
> 3. Miguel De I is letting the potential vaporous beauty of a
> .Net cast, ensnare the effort of him and other Open Source
> developers, with no enforceble 'ownership' of the
> specification to prevent the 'Extend proprietarily' and then
> 'Extinguish phase'. Both MS and Sun are experienced
> practioners in this arena.
MDI is on the OSF team. For me, Ximian is a loser and .net is a no-start. I
want nothing to do with either. Others see things differently.
My point being to quit griping about how other people choose to expend their
energies. Join them ... or fight them, if you wish ... but don't waste time &
energy griping.
>
> The results will be predictable, and not happy [It will
> provide much grist for the mill for NewsForge and SlashDot].
> More productive to focus on the Open Source buildout of the
> Application layer and meta-integration tools.
>
I agree. I have no Ximian and very little Gnome software installed.. My wife
has asked me to install Linux on her machine as soon as I can get Wine to run
a particular application we both use and can't replace with a Linux
equivalent yet. I also preach against Passport / .Net whenever I think I have
found a willing ear. .Net will need near-total market dominance before I
stoop to using it.
> -----------------
>
> Back to "ethically and honorably" -- I've been variously a
> Sunday school teacher; TCC, District Commissioner, and ASM in
> Scouting; and served my community in several non-profits.
>
You wrapped yourself in the flag and sang a couple bars of "Amazing Grace" on
that one. But have you looked up those scriptures I cited yet? Priests,
Ministers and Scout masters have been arrested for homosexual child
molestation. You sought one sort of "credence by association"; you got
another.
> Let's ask a couple of questions:
>
> Did Sun act 'On its honor, to do its best, to do its duty, to
> its Lord and its Country, to act in a [trustworthy, loyal,
> helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful,
> thrifty, brave, clean and reverent]' manner? [I've trimmed and
> made fit the Scout Oath and Law - a non-denominational civil
> standard compatible with most religions], These require
> affirmative virtue and striving for excellence, not passively
> 'not being bad'.
>
Sun is bound by the laws of the nations it does business in and by the laws
of God. By fulfilling its contracts and honoring its licenses, it acts in a
trustworthy, friendly, courteous, clean and reverant manner. Considering that
Sun <> BSA, I think they scored pretty well. The issue is not whether they
have given all they could. The issue is whether they honored their contracts
and licenses. Where they have "gone surety", they have made good on their
bargains.
> Should I trust an offer from Sun and rely on their good will
> side representations, or carefully read the 'fine print?'
Always read the fine print. That way you will know where they fall short and
where they go the extra mile. Right now you are deciding to interpret
contracts you aren't even a party to and holding Sun liable for not
fulfilling terms they never agreed to. That's like me deciding you could
afford a larger interest rate on your mortgage.
>
> -- I have a prized coffee cup, distributed internally at Sun,
> admonishing: "Keep Sun's Future Bright: Protect Its
> Intellectual Property" --
In other words ... "Please don't steal from us."
Were the improvements to BSD
> represented in SunOS fed back to the community freely;
Did the terms of the BSD license call for this?
> was the
> Solaris source released more freely than for AT&T's releases
> [Ans: certainly not]. The cup is prized, for it reminds me
> of the Dark Side
>
> I see just more of the same coming from Sun.
>
What ... more fulfillment of its contracts and licenses?
> I am presently subject to only one relevant NDA, and that one
> permits GPL release of my work product. I still pondered for
> a week before signing that.
According to Miss Cleo, that means you are either a deep thinker or
indecisive.
And by the way, I an no mooch,
> leech or freeloader; I support the community which supports me
> -- see our Anon FTP server and Projects page.
>
> -- Russ Herrold
Keep up the good work, Russ, I couldn't code a VCR. When your body of
contributed code matches that of Sun, let me know and I'll buy you a drink to
celebrate. Do you take cream or sugar?
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